A few month ago I changed my valve cover gasket. Soon afterwards I noticed a leak under the engine. It was determined to be the rear main seal. Surprisingly, this is my first leak in 160,000 miles. I changed the PCV with OEM and changed the emission lines. No problems with emissions. Concurrently, a load ticking noise started.
Before I knew about Auto-Rx, an auto tech suggested I use Bar's Leaks Rear Main Seal Repair on my next oil change. I did this and the leak become worse and the noise became worse. I drove the car about 1,000 miles and decided to change the oil and this time use conventional oil Castrol GTX 10w30, Purolator PureOne oil filter. The noise dimished considerably and the leak is the same
Last week I found out about Auto-Rx and decided to try. I changed the oil:
Castrol GTX 10w30 Purolator Pure oil filter Auto-Rx
I am in the cleanse phase with 300 miles so far.
The noise has increased once again quite badly and the leaks more.
My concerns:
1. Did the Bar's Leaks Rear Main Seal Repair swell the rear main seal and destroyed it where as Auto-Rx would be moot? And maybe other seals were damaged? 2. Why the increase in noise and leak when added Auto-Rx?
Hard to know exactly the cause of this increase in your ticking noise. I have had noises, such as ticking hydraulic lifters, come and go during the clean and rinse phases. I believe as the contaminants work their way out of components, some noises can come and go. It seems fairly common as is the occasional increase of a seal leak before it gets better during the completion of one or two treatments.
The Bar's Rear Main Seal should not have swelled your rear main seal in a harmful way. It is not a solvent type seal swell product.
-- Edited by bmwtechguy on Wednesday 28th of April 2010 06:09:01 PM
just wanted to throw in that I had 2.0l contour a few years back and the fuel injectors were the loudest I'd ever heard. Not sure if that's what you're hearing but it was pretty annoying to me.
You getting oil lubrication on metal not lubricated prior due to contaminants, dirt ,etc. Look for change after you finish rinse mode. Also go to www.auto-rx.com ands read FAQ
2. Why the increase in noise and leak when added Auto-Rx?
You may hear a few more during the rinse phase. Some things clean up faster than others. That is, lifters draining may out pace the supply to some degree. They all should pass if the noise is due to restricted lube flow. Just be prepared for new noises during the rinse phase. It can take you by surprise.
You getting oil lubrication on metal not lubricated prior due to contaminants, dirt ,etc. Look for change after you finish rinse mode. Also go to www.auto-rx.com ands read FAQ
This is actually getting quite annoying with this increase noise...it's real bad. Most people now look my way to see what the noise is. It's embarrassing
I put 700 miles on. Not sure how much longer I can take it. Unless I just drive a long distance across the state and add another 700 to be near the 1500 miles needed. Then change the oil.
-- Edited by Vlaj on Thursday 6th of May 2010 05:53:54 PM
-- Edited by Vlaj on Friday 7th of May 2010 12:41:38 AM
You could change just the filter-I would actually use the classic Purolator instead: cheaper and less likely to get fully loaded as quickly. I have had a filter get loaded in as little as 500-700 miles on a very sludged engine.
I would be curious to see if the noise subsides at all if filter is changed.
You could change just the filter-I would actually use the classic Purolator instead: cheaper and less likely to get fully loaded as quickly. I have had a filter get loaded in as little as 500-700 miles on a very sludged engine.
I would be curious to see if the noise subsides at all if filter is changed.
Why would changing the oil filter and to the classic Purolator make any difference in the noise?
BTW, my Zetec engine has solid lifters with bucket tappets and they are adjusted with shims. Although, I heard those shim/buckets on the Zetec engines are the worst/hardest to adjust. VERY time consuming and involved.
I hope Auto-RX helps since I don't want to go that route.
-- Edited by Vlaj on Friday 7th of May 2010 05:37:41 PM
What year is this engine? I think that this has a timing belt and not a chain. With bucket lash adjustments I'm trying to figure where the noise would be coming from.
What year is this engine? I think that this has a timing belt and not a chain. With bucket lash adjustments I'm trying to figure where the noise would be coming from.
Correct, it has a timing belt.
1999 Zetec, 2.0L, DOHC, VIN 3
These photos are not my car but I found them to help give an idea. This is the exact engine I have.
The last photo is a good example where the noise is coming from. I can hear is right through the valve cover.
-- Edited by Vlaj on Saturday 8th of May 2010 05:26:07 PM
Hmm, while there could be surely be call for noise from the assembly, the hard part to figure is how it was altered with a given oil/filter change when it wasn't hydraulically maintained ..so to speak.
As a test, I'd rinse with a 40 grade. This should determine if some film thickness is all that there is to altering the noise.
-- Edited by geeaea on Thursday 13th of May 2010 03:57:33 PM
I changed the oil at 3,100 miles with Costrol 10w30 conventionoal. The oil was very dark and I saved it. Wonder if I should have it analyzed?
Interesting, the day after changing the oil, the oil leak stopped completely. I cleand the entire engine underneath with Gunk degreaser. The ticking decreased also.
Unfortunately, the 2nd day in the cleanse cycle, the oil started leaking again and the ticking is horrible.
Not sure what to make of this. I was very happy thinking this tick and leak would be repaired, sadly I think the ticking may be work out tappets. But this was ironic to stop then start.
Thoughts?
-- Edited by Vlaj on Saturday 10th of July 2010 02:14:39 PM
Curious results with the cessation and return of both the leak and the noise. It can surely be a worn bucket and the seal may be damaged. It was worth the effort and, in terms of the seal leak, it's obvious that it wasn't a totally lost cause since it did indeed stop, albeit for a brief bout. It may stop again as you move forward. The lifter/tappet/cam noise is an oddity in it stopping then returning It had me leaning toward requiring a mechanical repair.
-- Edited by geeaea on Saturday 10th of July 2010 09:02:35 PM
Curious results with the cessation and return of both the leak and the noise. It can surely be a worn bucket and the seal may be damaged. It was worth the effort and, in terms of the seal leak, it's obvious that it wasn't a totally lost cause since it did indeed stop, albeit for a brief bout. It may stop again as you move forward. The lifter/tappet/cam noise is an oddity in it stopping then returning It had me leaning toward requiring a mechanical repair.
-- Edited by geeaea on Saturday 10th of July 2010 09:02:35 PM
Thanks. I just wonder if the cost to repair the tappets/buckets/cam noise is costly? If I only knew someone in my area who could do this on the side.
Well, no repair is cheap these days. It appears to be fairly straight forward without to much tap dancing. A couple of covers (timing belt and valve) ..unbolting some things.. and the rest is skill in setting it back up.
Taking the valve cover off would tell you if you have cam wear. That can be a fundamental guide in how you proceed from there. No cam wear, then you've got just cause to have the lash set with new buckets. If you saw cam wear, then it would be time to weigh the cost of changing out the cams with the new buckets. Not much difference in labor (or so I reason), but they're probably not cheap.
Well, no repair is cheap these days. It appears to be fairly straight forward without to much tap dancing. A couple of covers (timing belt and valve) ..unbolting some things.. and the rest is skill in setting it back up.
Taking the valve cover off would tell you if you have cam wear. That can be a fundamental guide in how you proceed from there. No cam wear, then you've got just cause to have the lash set with new buckets. If you saw cam wear, then it would be time to weigh the cost of changing out the cams with the new buckets. Not much difference in labor (or so I reason), but they're probably not cheap.
The cams are not worn.
I seems I merely need the lash set with new buckets.
Any idea who I should seek out to repair this problem?
It's also interesting that during the cleanse cycle the ticking was greatly reduced. Now during the rinse cycle, the ticking is bad.
I wouldn't have a clue on who to do this work. It's assured to be expensive through the dealer network. I'd find a fellow enthusiast locally who knows the job and is willing to do it with you. Then again, I'm cheap and am always willing to play "Mr. Hold-It"
While Auto-Rx does a great job of taking up residence on all metal surfaces, it would be a push to imagine film thickness enough to take up valve lash. You're not actually supposed to be hearing the interaction at the cam interface, but rather the valve slamming closed on the seat.
I wouldn't have a clue on who to do this work. It's assured to be expensive through the dealer network. I'd find a fellow enthusiast locally who knows the job and is willing to do it with you. Then again, I'm cheap and am always willing to play "Mr. Hold-It"
While Auto-Rx does a great job of taking up residence on all metal surfaces, it would be a push to imagine film thickness enough to take up valve lash. You're not actually supposed to be hearing the interaction at the cam interface, but rather the valve slamming closed on the seat.
What about the oil still leaking from the rear main seal? It was odd that it stopped for 2 days *after* I changed the oil and went to the clreanse cycle. It seems it seems to be leaking worst.
OK, I'm not going to tell you how to proceed, but I will make a suggestion for the rear main seal leak. I have not used this product, but you may want to look at this as a cheap solution.
Here's the website with the product, White Shepherd Rear Main Seal Stop Leak & Conditioner:
This company makes products thatappear to work properly, as recommended by their testimonials.
As I said I can't tell you how good they are, but apparently the products work, so I'm just passing the word on for your information and, possibly, a total cure to your oil leaks. I would read all the testimonials, frequently asked questions (FAQS) and recommendations plus check with the Auto-RX people here as to their recommendation on doing this to complement your cleaning and rinsing.
By the way, I don't work for these people or have any financial interest in their company. I'm just alerting you to another possible cure, that could work, and at the same time save you a bundle of money.
I truly hope this helps you...Please let us know on the forum here if this helps you, as I would like to know, too, if my recommendation works for you or anyone else.
If you throw another product into the mix, you will have less chance of knowing what results you got from which product or action. Rotational seal leaks can stop after or during clean/rinse cycles. I would follow the directions closely for seal leaks, giving the Auto-Rx chemistry time to work. ARX is not a quick fix product.
Seal stop leak products can work as advertised, but I would save it for later if needed.
In almost all cases rear main seal leaks stop during the rinse phase running conventional or mineral oil all by itself. I would give it time, possibly the whole 3000 mile oci for the seal to reconform to the rotating shaft. It takes a little bit of time for the seal to find its old memory once the contaminants have been removed from around the seal interface.
Also want to check out the PCV valve for operation. Eccess crankcase pressure will force a leak.
In almost all cases rear main seal leaks stop during the rinse phase running conventional or mineral oil all by itself. I would give it time, possibly the whole 3000 mile oci for the seal to reconform to the rotating shaft. It takes a little bit of time for the seal to find its old memory once the contaminants have been removed from around the seal interface.
Also want to check out the PCV valve for operation. Eccess crankcase pressure will force a leak.
The PCV valve was just replaced.
Is there anything else I could check that my be increasing the crankcase pressure?
Excessive blowby (ring sealing) could be checked with a cyl leakdown test, however, that engine should not have this kind of wear yet with the maintenance you have done. Have you ever checked compression on each cylinder? That would be a start. Then, if you have low compression on a cylinder, you can then do the cylinder leakdown test and see if there is excessive blowby raising the crankcase pressure.
-- Edited by bmwtechguy on Friday 16th of July 2010 10:54:13 AM
After going 1,000 miles through the rinse phase, I had to change the oil. It was black.
I am not into my 1,700 miles after that change.
I am thining maybe the protocol should be to change the oil at 1,000 miles of the rinse phase for cars with over 1000,000 miles on it.
The oil leak had dinished and I am thinking that the 1,000 change helped.
There was no way I could go through 3,000 miles rinse phase without changing the oil at 1,000 miles.
This change should be implemented in the protocol
If you feel the need to change out the rinse phase oil for peace of mind, there's not much of a downside to it other than the time and your wallet. It would be far cheaper to just change the filter.
The oil itself can't possibly be shot. Now one could reason (that is, "imagine") that the oil is chuck full of liberated contaminants that are all just floating around knocking around in there. That's where your filter comes into the picture. Anything above a certain particle size gets trapped. Anything below a certain particle size is deemed inconsequential. By inconsequential I mean that while one CAN accumulate enough of the smaller particles to eventually reach some abrasive state, that state doesn't reach the level of significance in the life span of the engine. It's a time weighted average in that even if one reaches an abrassive state, you're not giving it enough dwell time within the engine to cause accelerated wear of merit.
So, do whatever makes you comfortable on the rinse phase, but I'd recommend just changing the filter.
After going 1,000 miles through the rinse phase, I had to change the oil. It was black.
I am not into my 1,700 miles after that change.
I am thining maybe the protocol should be to change the oil at 1,000 miles of the rinse phase for cars with over 1000,000 miles on it.
The oil leak had dinished and I am thinking that the 1,000 change helped.
There was no way I could go through 3,000 miles rinse phase without changing the oil at 1,000 miles.
This change should be implemented in the protocol
If you feel the need to change out the rinse phase oil for peace of mind, there's not much of a downside to it other than the time and your wallet. It would be far cheaper to just change the filter.
The oil itself can't possibly be shot. Now one could reason (that is, "imagine") that the oil is chuck full of liberated contaminants that are all just floating around knocking around in there. That's where your filter comes into the picture. Anything above a certain particle size gets trapped. Anything below a certain particle size is deemed inconsequential. By inconsequential I mean that while one CAN accumulate enough of the smaller particles to eventually reach some abrasive state, that state doesn't reach the level of significance in the life span of the engine. It's a time weighted average in that even if one reaches an abrassive state, you're not giving it enough dwell time within the engine to cause accelerated wear of merit.
So, do whatever makes you comfortable on the rinse phase, but I'd recommend just changing the filter.
Interesting.
So, you would suggest not to change the oil at 1,000 miles of the rinse phase even when the oil is pitch black?
I think any reasonable person would change the oil at that time regardless.
This sure does take a long time. I started the cleanse and rinse cycle in April and now it's 8 months later and still just about to go into the second cleanse phase after 2 rinses.
Update:
I have completed my second rinse phase and now will begin the second application of cleaning with Auto-Rx.
So the accumalated mileague:
1. Cleanse = 3,000 miles (black oil) April, 2010 2. Rinse = 3,000 (black oil) July, 2010 3. Rinse = 3,000 (black oil) September, 2010 4. Begin cleanse phase January 1, 2011
So far through the protocol slight to no improvement in the oil leak or ticking.
I noticed since the temperature dropped in the 20F, the oil leak became worse. There are large oil spots in the driveway all over the place.
My thought is, the cold weather hardended the rear main seal and caused more leaking?
I have already change the PCV valve and all the emission hoses are new or good condition.
Thanks
-- Edited by Vlaj on Monday 3rd of January 2011 04:22:34 PM
-- Edited by Vlaj on Sunday 13th of February 2011 04:59:33 PM
i am reiterating what BMW Tech said or maybe paraphrasing it. When metal that has because of dirt,contaminants, third party abrasives starts to get clean and oil can start lubricating these areas your going to hear noises. Oil cannot lubricate through dirt etc it just skips to a clean spot.
Metal wear is caused by not getting any lubrication. No chemistry can repair metal wear however Auto-Rx will alter the effects of prior poor lubrication as after using Auto-rx oil can lubricate.
Regarding seals as long as Auto-Rx is being used to clean the engine internals your going to get leaks. Auto-Rx makes the seal pliable. It is the additive package in group 111 oils we use to restore pliability so seal stops leaking. (No Auto-Rx) this is clearly stated in the application for seal leaks and of course there's the chance your seal is ripped or torn if thats the case than mechanical repairs are needed.
It would seem you doing two separate applications at the same time.
-- Edited by Frank Miller on Tuesday 4th of January 2011 12:05:26 PM
i am reiterating what BMW Tech said or maybe paraphrasing it. When metal that has because of dirt,contaminants, third party abrasives starts to get clean and oil can start lubricating these areas your going to hear noises. Oil cannot lubricate through dirt etc it just skips to a clean spot.
Metal wear is caused by not getting any lubrication. No chemistry can repair metal wear however Auto-Rx will alter the effects of prior poor lubrication as after using Auto-rx oil can lubricate.
Regarding seals as long as Auto-Rx is being used to clean the engine internals your going to get leaks. Auto-Rx makes the seal pliable. It is the additive package in group 111 oils we use to restore pliability so seal stops leaking. (No Auto-Rx) this is clearly stated in the application for seal leaks and of course there's the chance your seal is ripped or torn if thats the case than mechanical repairs are needed.
It would seem you doing two separate applications at the same time.
-- Edited by Frank Miller on Tuesday 4th of January 2011 12:05:26 PM
Frank, thank you.
You mention, "It is the additive package in group 111 oils we use to restore pliability so seal stops leaking. "
I have been using conventional Castrol GTX 10w30. Should I be using a different oil which is Group 111 like Castrol Syntec?
