Hello all. A brother in law called today to tell me he had his car at the dealer for brake work and while it was there he had them check out the engine because he had started to notice a puff of blue smoke when starting the engine sometimes. They said they checked out his engine and that it's completely gunked up inside and that he will need a new engine for $7000 dollars. Needless to say he was very concerned, but says the car is at least running fine for now.
Going back a few years... a little history on the situation. When they purchased the car used it was in like-new condition, and at that time, I offered to help keep it serviced for him (as I had for his truck and other family members' vehicles), he said that he was going to be taking it to the dealer and keeping the service records up to date and so on. At the time, I remember being a little put-off by his decision to use the dealer instead of me to do his work. I had even let him know about the issue Toyota was having with sludge in these engines. After a few expensive dealer oil changes, I'm thinking he went to changing his own oil sometimes or paying Jiffy Lube to change it.
I asked him today how often he has serviced the oil and he sort of was guessing between 5-7k mile intervals (on non-synthetic oil). I suggested the Auto-RX, and he said anything that I thought could help avoid a major repair would be welcome. So, next weekend we are set to go for it and begin another ARX success story. I will update this thread as the treatment progresses. Of course we will follow the sludge directions. My plan is to do 2 complete treatments, and then go to a 4 oz maintenance dose for each oil change thereafter.
Be sure to service the PCV system on a regular basis. You might consider shortening the oil change intervals. Even with synthetic I wouldn't go over 5,000 miles in an engine that is known for having sludge problems.
bmwtechguy, the only way this is going to work out is if this family member follows your instructions to the tee, meaning he has to do exactly what you say. I would advise you tell this family member to not do any short trip driving.
You may also want to tell him to take this car out on the weekends for a long highway run, and make sure he uses the cheapest dino oil he can get his hands on.
Auto-Rx works if you work it, meaning drive the car a lot.
At 750 miles into the first cleaning, he has noticed his oil light going on and off at times, but no unusual engine noises. The puff of smoke at startup has not returned. He has decided to change the oil filter earlier than the 1250 miles recommended, just to be safe. For the price of the FL400s, it's not a bad idea, I guess.
Owner called yeterday and said that he had already added 2 quarts of oil at about 500 miles into this first cleaning. The oil level had gone down so much that the engine had gotten noisy while his wife was driving it.
Also, he did say that the "huge cloud of billowing smoke" that he used to have on startup has now gone down to a small, steady stream of blue smoke when the engine is running. (Originally it was a "puff" of smoke"? ...Hard to get correct descriptions secondhand) So he called me after he had changed the oil filter yesterday with car setting level in the driveway and he said again that the oil level was not on the stick again, even before starting the engine. He did at least take my advice and changed the filter with a cold engine that had sat overnight and he lost minimal oil and made less mess that way.
So he says he is using a lot of oil. It sounds like possibly 4 quarts in 750 miles! He did say the oil light is staying off a lot more than ever before and that some noises are coming and going. I am not there to verify any of this but it is interesting stuff, coming from an engine that Toyota has officially condemned as ruined. I hope his level readings on the stick are accurate. He did say the oil is as black as tar. I'm thinking to go another 250 miles and start a rinse cycle to drain out whatever crud is circulating in the pan right now, especially after jmdennis' experience on a couple of other threads.
The next thing I believe that we need to do is check the PCV or crankcase venting system. It is possible that this is slap full of crud, causing the crankcase pressure to build up and push oil into the combustions chambers via the rings and valveguides, resulting in excessive oil consumption. So far no external leaks.
Get him on a rinse mode with this engine probably two 3000 mile rinses tell him to just top off oil as needed and change out filter every 1500 miles. IMO it is all about to free up engine internals and sludge amount will over fill normal filter change.
if you have your service records in order contact toyota directly.this repair may be covered.not sure of the cutoff date but toyota extended warrenties on these sludge prone engines.
Will do. I think that Toyota wants to see proof that you at least changed oil every 7500 miles per owners manual minimum requirements before they will consider to help you with the repair.
I talked again to the car owner, my brother in law and we decided to change oil and filter this weekend, using the longer filter again. He will use whatever inexpensive oil is on sale. To be safe, he wants to rinse for only 2000 miles, with a filter change at approx 1000 miles. He will do 2 of these 2000 mile rinses back to back for a total of 4000 miles and 4 filters. He said the oil and filters are cheap vs a huge repair bill, so he does not mind to doing some frequent oil changes. Jokingly I said he was finally going to get caught up on his oil changes. For some reason he was not laughing....
We will also look at how difficult it would be to just go ahead and pull down the engine pan for cleaning. Also we will check out the PCV system and clean it up and replace PCV valve if it has one.
After these rinses are done, we will go back into a full cleaning again, 2 oz ARX per qt. Or at least that is the current plan. He is keeping a log of every event in this whole process, including every quart of oil he has added, so that he can share his results in a factual way for others in the same or similar situation later on.
It looks like you guys really need to address this PCV issue, and once this is done the oil consumption should drop. That engine is releasing a lot of junk to the oil filter, and the vapors from any stuff inside the engine is really flying around.
Last year my Dad told me to come over to his house because he was 2 quarts down on oil in his 1979 Pontiac Bonneville. I said when did you last change the PCV, he said that he did not know, which meant that he did not change it.
I bought him a new PCV, the old 1 was totaly stopped up with CRUD.
I put the new PCV in and his oil consumption is gone.
If you do not change this PCV then you will continue to have problems on this car.
Did not find a PCV valve on this engine yesterday while changing the oil and filter. Also, the local auto parts store did not have a listing for a PCV valve on this engine. It surely has some sort of crankcase ventilation system, just have not figured it out yet. We did calculate the oil consumption rate since the onset of this first ARX clean cycle, and it is consuming approx. 1 qt of non-synthetic oil every 200 miles, that is way up from not using any noticeable amount of oil before. I cannot absolutely verify the consumption before ARX because it is secondhand info from the owner.
The engine did not smoke at all while we had it running and seems to run and accelerate fine. Also there are no engine noises to speak of and the oil light is staying off altogether when the engine is running. But he did assure me that it does still smoke out the exhaust every once in a while. We are now into the first rinse at only 1250 miles after adding Auto-Rx. It has been 3 weeks at least since the dealer told him that the engine would lock up within days or a few weeks. We are keeping our fingers crossed as we try to gently and slowly let the ARX clean up what took 132,00 miles and 8 years to accumulate.
Chime in if you have any ideas on any of this. He has lots of oil and filters on his shelf on the garage, ready to use. He is right in saying that oil changes are cheaper than engine work or engine changes. He said he would change his oil or filter every weekend if he thought it would help. I told him to focus on keeping the sump up to the full mark! So far he has been letting it go down 2+ quarts before adding oil, and that's a bad idea anytime. I did notice that the oil was very dark even though he had added 6 or 7 quarts since the last oil change.
Hoping Toyota will help is almost pointless as problem is in mechanical makeup of engine. The class action law suits are still going on and new ones being filed daily. If Toyota had a "fix" it would have stopped the pending legal action against them.
Well, we found and replaced the PCV valve and cleaned inside the vac hose to it a bit, so now we'll wait and see if this helps the massive oil consumption problem. I wonder if there is any merit in using a lower, say 6 oz. cleaning dose next time in this 5 qt sump to slow down the whole process a bit more, even. My thinking here is to lessen the amount and size of anything loosened up but not totally liquified yet that has the potential to restrict the oil pick-up screen along the way up to the oil pump. Just thinking about this stuff. This is, afterall, an unusually bad case of sludge contamination.
On a side note, both he and she are satisfied that good things are happening overall inside this engine and have some hope now that it will not grenade soon like the dealer promised.
If this thing works to clean enough internally, and however slowly, to keep this condemned engine alive and running well (and so far it is), this will be another awesome testimony to the effectiveness of Auto-RX. Even if it keeps it alive another month or two without a teardown, I will be impressed.
I stressed to them how important it is to keep the oil level in the engine up to the full mark, and to also keep an eye on the oil pressure light, which so far is yet staying off completely with engine running.
This engine beginning to sound like my GM 3800 Version 2 briefly it would only hold 4.5 quarts of oil (even though 5 quarts are called for) I did an Auto-Rx treatment for the third time and after rinse phase had 5 quart capacity . This engine was in a rental when i bought it and had 165,000 miles approximately. Transmission was not shifting properly (did 2 Auto-Rx applications) now i had engine running not burning oil and transmission shifting (not always when i wanted it to ) well I drove into a huge pot hole metal to cement Buick runs and shifts like new. This is not an approved application.
The oil consumption rate and oil level readings seem to be very consistent right now. We are waiting to see if changing the PCV (valve) will lower the rate of oil consumed. He also informed me that the smoking occurs now for only about the first 30 seconds of cold engine operation, then it settles into normal steam produced by all cars in cold weather, especially until the engine is fully warmed up.
I would think your oil consumption issues may be a thing of the past.
How clogged up was the PCV and the PCV hose.
It might be a good idea to change the fuel filter if it has not been changed in a while, if your brother in law cannot remember the last time that it was changed, then it is time to change it.
You've got to two separate issues going on. Sludge and Consumption. One is causing the other.
Your brother in law needs to get his sump up to heat for sustained periods. The longer, the better. This will allow Auto-Rx to liquefy the sludge in the drain back holes. Run it long and hard. Keep oil topped up and otherwise follow the mileage instructions for the application.
The oil consumption is most surely due to clogged drain back holes that are allowing oil to amass in the upper valve train. This is a known characteristic of this engine. This whips oil everywhere and entrains it with the normal PCV flow.
Yesterday he called to say that he started it up cold in the morning and had NO SMOKE at all! Verses an "impressive cloud of smoke" as he has described it, on every other morning. Coincidentally, the family was on their way to Pep Boys at my advice to buy a bunch of the Shell oil/proline filter $10 oil change specials, limit 2 per person. He said that they got a bunch of 5W-30 and 10W-40(for his 93 F150 302).
We used a Purolator brand of PCV valve. Is the idea of a PCV catch can so that the oil can drop into the can as it goes through vs going to the intake directly and being consumed? I guess this way you would should be able to see oil collect in this can over time.
He has begun driving this car to work instead of his truck, which he has left her to run around in. This way, it never gets less than 40 or 45 mile runs per trip. I told him to work the engine some to get the oil moving around really well. So he claims that is what he is doing every day back and forth to work.
The SuperTech 5W-30 that is in the sump now is staying very clear, which makes me think that not much is really going on right now, except that it is still running quietly, which is a good thing. He's going to change just the filter next weekend and run another 1000 miles. Up next, is Castrol GTX for either another 2000 mile rinse or the next cleaning dose. He hasn't decided
He called tonight and said that the consumption is as bad or more than ever, and the smoke is as bad as ever, too. He says he is ready to do another cleaning, so this weekend we will first use some combustion chamber cleaner through the PCV hose, then we will change the oil and filter and add some more Auto-rx. The current oil is staying clean on the stick. No time for it really to darken when he is adding a quart every day or 2.
So my question is, how many ounces of Auto-Rx does he add given the concern of excess sludge such as his and the extreme oil consumption? He has a 5 quart sump. I was sort of thinking to add 6 oz of ARX, then add 2 more oz. the next 3 times he adds a quart of oil (over the next 600 miles) This idea is to keep the level of ARX up there for a while. I realize this is not per the sludge instructions, but I am looking for an extra slow gentle cleaning, and looking to keep a cleaning dose of ARX in the sump as long as possible.
The current goal is to get consumption back down to a more reasonable level while obviously keeping the engine in one piece. Whatever action that requires next in this process is the one we should do.
While you are working the combustion chamber cleaner, reinspect the PCV valve and hosing to be sure that it is not already fowled or inoperable. Should this be the case, it would be a pretty good indicator that the head drain back passages are plugged and the oil being pumped top side can not return adequately. In this case it would be impossible for ARX to work because there is no flow through the clogged passages. The PCV catch can would be the best way to determine if this is the cause of the oil consumption.
However, if not the case the rate of adding a quart of oil every day or two would basically render the sump's ARX concentration close to zero after 5 to 10 days of operation. In actuality with the rate of consumption, this unit is likely being run in a rinse mode at this point. As the oil get consumed, presumably burned, so does the ARX.
So I agree that it is time to rebatch and start the process over. I think this go around it would be prudent to add 2 fluid ounces with every quart of make up oil added. I have spoken to Frank and are thoughts are to offer you the product to do so. But the ability of the oil to drain back to the sump is critical to achieve success. ARX can clean where oil can't flow. On the upward travel to the top end you likely have 30-40 psi pressure forcing oil up, but only gravity to allow for oil to return.
Give Frank a buzz or an email and he's more than happy to donate you some product to further your cause.
Smoke at start up cold in the mornings would likely indicate excess oil sitting top side for a period of time leaching down through into a combustion chamber or two overnight.
Brian this came from our Australian Dealer ask him for any help he might be able to give. "Stephen " is very creative and knowledgeable.
"Yes is this the guy using a quart every 200 miles? I have always said mix RX into your oil jug and when you add top up oil you are adding the lost RX at the correct ratio. This engine seems to be in a bad state, it may be beyond RX help imo."
One simple thing you could try in a diagnosis mode, to determine return oil passage blockage.
After running the car at full operating temperature, wait approximately one minute and pull the dip stick for a reading. On a fully warm motor the great majority of oil pumped top side should have drained back to the sump. Then re-stick the sump level after 10 minutes, if the oil level is substantially higher then it is likely that some passages out of the head are likely blocked. If it doesn't change at all then either the oil is returning to the sump, or not returning much at all.
Well, I can say this about the oil draining down. At least from the front bank where the oil cap is, I can add one quart and immediately pull out the stick and see that the amount on the stick has increased by one quart. So at least on that bank, we have some oil draining down. That's not to say it is not pooling in places that could allow oil to seep down into combustion chambers during long enough shut downs. It usually takes overnight or while the car sits all day at work for it to smoke at startup, per the owner. A 2 hour shutdown does not produce that cloud of smoke.
So am I to add 10 oz at oil change time(2 oz per qt), then 2 ounces for each qt added thereafter? We are going to tackle it this weekend. I still have some Auto-RX, but may need to buy some more before this is over. Thank you for the kind offer to help in this regard. All advice and ideas from everyone are certainly appreciated. I feel like I'm in somewhat uncharted waters on this project. I wish that I had the vehicle at my disposal to do as I wish, because I would do some of this differently to optimise the cleaning.
We changed the oil at their house this evening just before sitting down to watch the Superbowl. The oil was not particularly dark or sooty, compared to the first load we drained out. This oil had just under 1000 miles on it. We used Castrol GTX 5W-30 with the longer 3600 oil filter from Advance Auto. We then added 10 oz of Auto-rx, starting a new cleaning cycle. Right now he has a measuring bottle marked off in 2 oz increments and the plan is to add an additional 2 oz with each quart of makeup oil to keep a steady, effective level of ARX in the sump to keep a good cleaning cycle going. He has 24 oz left for now, so that will get him up to 12 quarts of makeup oil to add, if needed.
I witnessed the oil cloud at startup, but then very quickly it went down to nothing at all. We put some fuel system cleaner in the gas tank to help deal with the oil burning deposits in the combustion chambers and on the valves. just before draining the oil, I also ran some cleaner into the pcv hose with the engine running to help clean things up from all the oil burning through the combustion chambers. Not really sure if all the cylinders are involved in this current oil-burning condition. After the fuel system cleaner is run through completely, they will continue to use a small amount in each tank to keep things cleaner while all the oil burning is going on.
Something else we both noticed was that the oil flows into the engine a lot faster now while pouring into the hole. This was a welcome change, and showed me that something good and observable was accomplished with this most recent rinse.
I would take the PCV Valve hose off where it connects to the intake manifold, if there is oil then you may need to put on a catch can or as some people call it an Air/Oil Seperator. I have a feeling that oil vapors are getting sucked into the intake manifold and on startup this smoke you are seeing is from oil being burned off that is in the intake manifold.
It has been a while since this thread was updated, so I will just let those interested know what's going on. The good news is that we are finishing up a 3000 mile cleaning and this engine is still quiet and running very well and strong. Owner added 2 oz of ARX to every quart of 5W-30 make-up oil that was added during this cleaning cycle. He also has been changing the oil filter every 750 miles just so there is no question about overloading the filters. Of interest, the filters have been rather heavy when removed and we have saved them all with intentions to cut them open as soon as we get a suitable tool made or purchased.
The bad news is we still have major oil consumption/burning which is steady at approx. 200 miles per quart. The startup smoke is still there after car sits overnite or for 2-4 hours at least. On a recent 400 mile round trip to Charleston SC, the consumption did not change. In response to those that think most of the consumption is via the PCV valve, I'm having my doubts, really. I have yet to see any real evidence of anything other than normal amount of oilyness in the PCV area or vacuum hose.
I am convinced that we have a cylinder head oil drainback hole or several of them that are blocked with sludge and this is allowing oil to pool against some of the valve stems and seals which is allowing oil past the valves and into one or more combustion chambers. He is running 93 octane fuel and a small dose of fuel system cleaner in every tank to combat any deposits that are a result of all this oil getting past the valves to be burned. Also he was starting to have some preignition resulting from cc deposits, and so the 93 has helped with that as well.
He is determined to stick with ARX cleaning and rinsing throughout the summer, before we open up the engine to clean anything manually. We intend to switch to 10W-40/15W-40 soon for the summer, hoping that this may decrease consumption some. If by summer's end we have not achieved the goal of decreased consumption, we will open up the valve covers and engine pan/sump and clean some manually. Even with buying regular oil- we have gotten some real oil deals so far like 99c/qt clearance SM oil- and buying Auto-rx along with some that was donated by Frank, he is still way ahead financially vs paying to replace or rebuild this engine. And now it has been about 4 months and thousands of miles since the dealer condemned his engine and told him to park it until the engine was replaced for $7000.
We will see what happens over time..... Here's to hoping the summer heat will accelerate the cleaning and sludge dissolving abililty of Auto-Rx!
Sounds good. Hopefully the consumption issue will slow over time but sounds like sludge is being removed, which is a huge plus.
As for the detonation, that would be nice if it went away, although my girlfriends corolla has a detonation issue and I have not been able to get it to go away with numerous fuel treatments, pcv valves, maf cleanings, etc. It still runs great at 149K though.
How many miles have you gone using auto-rx in this engine, and how many oil filters have you gone through.
I say this because I went through 18 oil filters from 343,000 miles up until 363,000 miles.
I never had the oil burning issues, then again my oil return holes are huge compared to that Toyota.
My problems were that I have a carburetor that is not as efficient as EFI, and at 360,000 miles I replaced my valve seals, should have done this before auto-rx, I think my bad valve seals may have caused some build up of junk in the oil filters.
All you can do is stay the course and keep driving this car, I think your observation is correct about the oil return holes, I think in time this will clear up, if not then you will have to clear the oil return holes.
I know how big my oil return holes are since I have had the valve covers off, and I can look at a picture of a small block chevy cylinder head. Do you know how small these oil returns are, do you think the holes are about the diameter of a:
Well, he decided that all the oil being consumed was not doing his combustion chambers and cats any good. He also said that after nearly 6000 miles of Auto-Rx treatment, that his consumption was still very high and startup smoke very troublesome. So we talked about his options and since he is limited on funds like most of us, he asked if I would consider to take some covers off the engine and manually desludge everything I could get to, with a focus on drainback holes and PCV system. I strongly suspected the oil drainback holes from the top of the cylinder head down to the sump were mostly clogged, at least on the rear bank. Seemed like oil poured into the front bank oil cap was draining down to the sump immediately, so I figured it must be the rear bank causing all the trouble. Since the engine was overdue for a timing belt/waterpump and sparkplug replacement, we decided it would be wise to combine all the jobs since so much of the engine would be torn down anyway. I gave him an estimate and began the work late on a Friday afternoon.
After pulling off the first valve cover, I realized fairly quickly that I had way underestimated the amount of time it was going to take to complete this whole huge job plus the maintenance jobs! Cleaning off that sludge and baked on carbon is not easy in the least. More like it is really difficult and unhealthy due to the solvents needed to make it happen. Do not mistakenly believe that kerosene or diesel fuel will significantly clean anything like sludge or baked on carbonaceous deposits. Makes a great flush or rinse after part is mechanically cleaned with a brush and stronger solvents.
Ok, I know some of you will be curious as to how much cleaning happened with the Auto-Rx. Well, I took pictures of the whole process during this recent big cleanup job, but obviously we have no pictures of anything before the nearly 6000 miles worth of Auto-Rx treatment. I can say that in areas of high oil flow and rotational movement with significant splashing and spray, there were few deposits left. But the rest of the areas were very clogged up and still heavily sludged. I know it is impossible for Auto-Rx to totally undo what years of neglect caused this sort of mess. There was just an overwhelming amount of semi-solid deposits with underlying harder, baked-on deposits that required many hours of mechanical brushing and poking around with a screwdriver in areas the brush did not fit, not to mention the TOTALLY CLOGGED 3 OIL DRAINBACK HOLES IN THE REAR BANK OF THIS ENGINE! Yes, I found the smoking gun, pun intended. It took lots of time and effort to clean the hardened stuff out of these holes and reestablish normal flow through them. I don't think a lifetime of Auto-rx treatment or any other chemical (that would not dissolve engine parts first) would ever have broken through these plugged holes, which are the main key to his excessive consumption and startup smoke.
Here is my theory on how things went in this engine. His initial increase in oil consumption last Fall was due to the sludge deposits slowing down oil flow out the rear bank to the point that his drainback holes were nearly stopped up. He was noticing some startup smoke as well then. Then his low oil pressure light began to flicker and stay on briefly at times until he brought it to the dealer for the brake job and had them change the oil and check out the engine for what could be causing these symptoms. They immediately condemned the engine and recommended a 7 grand replacement one. He told them he would be along shortly to pay his bill and pick up the car.
He then called me and asked me for advice. I recommended the ARX and brought him a bottle or two. Oil light flickering and coming on stopped altogether rather soon after this first bottle of ARX was added. Oil got real dirty fast. The other thing that happened was that cold startup smoke got drastically worse. This indicates now to me that what little flow was left in the GRAVITY-ONLY drainback tubes on the rear bank was now lost due to so much loose, semi-liquid sludge getting down there but not THROUGH the drainback holes, effectively sealing them shut until I mechanically opened them back up using screwdrivers and strong carb spray until completely clean.
So what good did good ole Auto-Rx do? Well it saved the engine from near disaster and kept it running strong and smooth for 6000 miles, even when oil burning really got cranked up. How? Well for starters, his oil pickup tube screen was almost totally clogged shut with hard carbonaceous deposits and the oil light flickering indicates to me that the oil pump was not getting enough oil to pump and keep oil pressure up. This engine was about to choke and have parts sticking out of the side of the block! That first Auto-Rx dose must have liquified enough of the less-encrusted deposits around the outer area of the pickup screen, and maintained adequate oil flow up to the oil pump through multiple cleans and rinses! This alone saved this engine because they were still driving it with the light coming on and off, with seemingly no intention to stop driving it anytime soon. I believe they had no idea the real significance of this light coming on. Believe me, Toyota was right when they said the end was near and to park it! He ignored their advice and called me.... and the rest is now history.
BTW, job is now done and no more startup smoke or consumption. Engine is still smooth and quiet. Any thoughts?
-- Edited by bmwtechguy on Monday 6th of April 2009 01:13:33 AM
Forgot to mention that the baffles for the PCV system were totally clogged up in the top of the valve covers. Big surprise, huh? I was able to reestablish good flow through these baffled areas and also clean up the PCV hose vacuum port (underneath the intake manifold), which was still flowing, but not for long, as much crud as I got out of that little 90 degree fitting.
This engine got the medical equivalent of emergency multiple coronary stents (the Auto-RX), followed later by a quadruple bypass! (the major clean-up) Too bad I did not make as much money as the cardiologist or cardio-thoracic surgeon.....
-- Edited by bmwtechguy on Monday 6th of April 2009 01:37:21 AM
As a follow up on this car, I received a call from owner the other day. His son, a new 16 year old driver, pulled out into the path of an F150 pizza delivery guy that was travelling at full speed and totalled this car before we could completely finish our experiment. I was really wanting to see how low the consumption would be after a run or two with Maxlife high mileage oil combined with auto-Rx maintenance dose. I guess now we will never know.
Neither driver was hurt. Of course, that was the most important outcome.
-- Edited by bmwtechguy on Friday 24th of April 2009 08:15:09 AM
