Auto-Rx Customers Questions & Answers

Falcon your post is one of the best i have seen regarding oil burning causes in some Toyota's. here are two quick things you can do to check for sludge issues. 1-Turn your oil cap upside down and see if you have spaghetti type gray oil around the grooves. 2-Look at bottom of dipstick for same gray oily matter. if you see either you have sludge. Rest assured there is more in the engine.

I forgot to include this in my first post. Another thing I've noticed as I've been monitoring my oil levels more closely, is that it seems to take a really long time to drain back to the sump (like hours!). Do you guys think that's normal? An example would be, on one trip I drove about 200 miles, peeked at the oil when I stopped and it appeared to be down almost a quart. The park I had pulled over at had some great trails, so I decided to take a break and take my dogs hiking for a couple hours. When I got back to the car, the oil level was back up to about halfway on the dipstick. Anyway, what I'm wondering is, will running a heavier weight oil in there, cause it to drain back even more slowly and possibly cause the lower half of the engine to be oil-starved? I hope this isn't too dumb a question! 

Thanks! I will place my order, go stock up on oil and a couple filters, and get to work!

I was poking around in my garage last night, and realized that I had purchased an extra case of Castrol GTX 5W-30 last time it was on sale. Would it be okay to just use that, or should I go buy a case of 10W-40? Also, I was wondering, how often should the PCV valve be replaced? It was still running on the original when I bought the car. When I asked about it, the dealer said to leave it in there until 90,000 miles? I just went ahead and replaced it myself, but wondered what you guys recommend for service interval on that? Seems like a lot of stuff the dealers say, is geared towards making the car seem "low maintenance", rather than what's best for that particular engine?

kbrubach wrote:

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Also, I was wondering, how often should the PCV valve be replaced? It was still running on the original when I bought the car. When I asked about it, the dealer said to leave it in there until 90,000 miles? I just went ahead and replaced it myself, but wondered what you guys recommend for service interval on that? Seems like a lot of stuff the dealers say, is geared towards making the car seem "low maintenance", rather than what's best for that particular engine?

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Every time you do an engine tune up (plugs, timing belt, etc.), it would be advisable to replace the PCV valve. Generally around the 60,000 mile mark I would say.


-- Edited by Falcon LS at 16:42, 2009-01-23

This particular engine was the one that started all the lawsuits, regarding the infamous sludge issue.

Kbrubach, once your application is completed and you achieved your results, I would recommend a slightly thicker oil, depending on where you live. If the climate conditions allow it, try to go for a 10W-40 motor oil with a maintenance dose of Auto-Rx. If you live in a colder climate, 5W-40 would do, but 10W-40 would stay in the viscosity range longer with a non-synthetic. Castrol GTX is a good choice, with a maintenance dose, and follow a rigorous 3,000 mile oil change interval to prevent this from happening again. Always stick with one brand, as mixing different oils can have adverse affects.

I realise this particular engine calls for 5W-30 in the US, and you will notice a faint drop in fuel economy with the only slightly thicker oil. However, the slightly thicker oil will be more resistant to oil shearing than the one recommended for CAFE purposes, offering better protection. Thick oil holds heat better and doesn't degrade as fast as thinner oil, as it picks up dirt, soot, moisture, etc. As contaminants are held in the oil, the thinner oil loses its ability to lubricate as it should and the particles it picks up end up sticking to engine parts, increasing the possibility of sludge formation.

I wouldn't sweat the Auto
Rx addition ..as in compensating for the add to the oil level. I don't think that this engine is too sensitive to sump level.

Don't worry about the liquid in the filter. You can probably pour it back in if you want to. IIRC, the sludge that forms on this engine is a somewhat hard deposit and not the pudding type most limited to short trip usage and no oil changes (the source of the infamous PZ and QS "wax" myths ).

That is, while the filter may have some grit in it, I doubt that the filter will be FULL of sludge ..so the fluid can be reintroduced.  It's only (probably) a 1/2 pint +/-

This type of deposit is most stubborn. Patience is the key.

-- Edited by geeaea at 20:30, 2009-01-31

Changing the filter halfway through the clean and rinse phase is simply a precaution in the event it is full of sludge. Here is an alternative at halfway mileage keep a close check on how your engine is running, if sluggish, no power change the filter. If not at 2500 & 3000 miles changes those filters than.

Panthermike is right better to be safe than sorry. I would prefer to see you change the filters and top off with oil (no Auto-Rx necessary)

No problem at all. I know some parts are interchangeable, and just have different part numbers for different engines. So, I wanted to double-check. I got my bottles of Auto-Rx yesterday, and it's supposed to be in the 40's this weekend. Yay, let the detox begin!   I would imagine once I put the new oil with the Rx in, it would be good to get it out on the highway a bit? I was thinking of taking a couple weekend trips, like maybe 200 - 300 miles. If my oil consumption rate is the same as my last road trip, I probably will go through close to a quart. When I replace oil that's been burned off, would I need to add Rx to that as well? It seems like otherwise, it get rather diluted before the rinse process? Thanks guys!

Hi folks - I'm going through the same situation with my highlander, so let me throw out there what I've been doing. There is a great thread on bobtheoilguy about someone's manual cleaning of the heads and pan of an Avalon. It may be famous now. It was my inspiration; although, I have yet to declare victory.

Anyhow, I had the same symptoms as kbruback. I pulled the valve covers (an incredible pain to access the rear cover - i mean, a REAL pain), and dropped the pan. Crap everywhere! I could barely see cam lobes. So, I had a choice to make - put things together and AutoRx, or manually clean and then AutoRx. Because I could literally scoop the crud out with a spoon around the cams, and the pickup screen was not even visible, I couldn't wait 3-6k mi for a gentle cleaning. So (for better or worse), I went for it. I spent the better part of the last four weekends dissassembling and cleaning, starting with a spoon, then tongue depressors, then toothbrushes, q-tips, and rags, all the time using diesel as a solvent. I did this to the heads and the pan/sump/pickup. The parts I can reach are pretty clean and the pickup looks new. Looking up to the crank, it looks reasonable - just varnish, from what I can tell. The intake manifold is glazed with oil residue, and small puddles of oil can be seen on the backside of the valves. No wonder I was blowing smoke.

I still have to do a final clean of the residual RTV on the covers, then I'm putting it back together over the next couple of days. I have a new PCV valve. My plan is to do a 4 qt oil / 1 qt diesel mix and idle for a minute before draining, dropping the pan to re-clean the pickup, and changing the filter. (I made up a temporary buna-n pan gasket because it's easier to drop the pan without the stock RTV method. I dont care if it leaks a bit for the flushes. I suspect I'll be dropping the pan a few times). I know stuff is going to break loose fast, so I'll do a few flushes (with 1-10 minute idling intervals) and check and change the filters at each flush for loose gunk before I put any load on the engine. Once things seem okay (if they do), I'll go on a short drive, flush, then begin the Auto-Rx treatment.

I am close to reassembling and have tons of pictures of the sludge, before and after manual cleaning, if people are interested. I am happy to post these, as well as pictures as the AutoRx progresses, once I get to that phase. I only drive 1k mi / month, so it may be a while before I see progress.

Since the cleaning is already done, please don't bash me about the risks of this method. It's done. If you have suggestions before I close things up, or about the flushing, I'm all ears. I tried to be fairly meticulous about the cleaning.
 
P.S. By far, the most difficult part of this job was dissassembly (goofy external torx studs, intake hangers, wire harness, and the exhaust blocking the pan). I hate to whine, but there are a few *very* simple changes that Toyota could make that would make this job go from *incredibly* frustrating to very reasonable.

Ok. What's before and after are self-explanatory. Note that this is after manual cleaning. I have not reassembled things yet. Hopefully, the AutoRx treatment will begin this weekend.
I'm making a run to AutoZone for permatex, plugs, filters, and oil. Please, let me know if I should do something before buttoning things up.

I'll disclose details if my fix works - I'll say that this is my first Toyota, and may be my last.
I could have made a stink and maybe received a new engine, but I saw the finger pointing and the positioning by Toyota, and quite frankly, I have so many other things going on right now that are higher priority, I just couldn't muster the energy to fight.

Like you, I don't have the cash for a new engine or car.

All I used was a socket set and external torx socket set, 1/4" and 3/8 drives, a few oddball screwdrivers, paint scraper for the oil pan, that's it. So, no special tools. Also, it's my first time with this engine. My most valuable tool has been my digital camera. To access the rear valve cover, I had to lift the wire harness, which meant disconnecting everything - so labeling tape and camera are essential.

You can find the highlander factory manual online which has complete parts breakdown and torque specs. The haynes manual was kind of helpful. Bottom line, it is one of those projects that took a life of its own.

Depending on how you make out (and me for that matter), I'm happy to get into more details of my cleaning, should you need to get into that. Keep posting, I want to hear how the treatment works for you.

From your first post; however, I'm not certain about your sludge. No smoke?? If you are down oil, it's either leaking, pooling, or burning. If burning, you should see it. If leaking, you should see it. If pooling and not returning to the sump, it's blocked - I've never heard of this, but I'm a novice.

Will do, but I'll limit it to the front valve cover. Once I RTV the pan, I'm not inclined to remove it, and the rear cover...well...enough said. Expect photos sometime in May, then August after the rinse.
In the meantime, I'll follow the thread if there's input or questions from the group.

Richone,
Great points - thanks.
Honestly, I don't entirely know where all the returns are. The front head has a main square hole towards the belt side. This is right under the area shown in pic#2. The passageway itself was coated with thin mud, but probably more problematic was the wad of sludge covering most of the hole. Once the sludge was removed, it looked open (best I can tell). The rear head is harder to deal with. There are two tubes along the rearmost part of the head that were totally blocked. I can't really see back there, but can definitely feel that they are now open (I pulled the stuff out, but I'm sure some went the wrong way).
Also, the valve covers were caked, blocking most vent holes and these little louver things on an intermediate plate that should be open.

So, a few questions for the group:
1. Where are all the return passages in the heads? I don't want to miss any, assuming I can access them w/o pulling the heads.
2. If I can't reach the passages, is there anything I can do before reassembly?
3. Assuming I can keep it running long enough for cleaning and rinsing, what's the concensus regarding AutoRx cleaning the passages?

Thanks for the help.
 
I'll try to take some pics tonight of the rear head tube things.

No. What you should check is that after filling the sump with oil, with a new filter, monitor the speed at which the oil returns from the top end of the motor back down to the pan or sump.
Step 1 would be to run the motor to at least warm conditions, roughly 5 miles or 15 minutes worth of idle.

Step II turn off the motor and immediately(30 seconds to 1 minute) pull the dip stick to monitor oil level. If it depreciable low, then there may be drain back issue. If it still low after 5 minutes then there is definitely a drain back issue.

I applaude you again for the vigilant work. Merely trying to inform you of a potential problem, that I sincerely hope does not exist.

Richone, great - got it regarding the dip stick check, duh on my part.

Well, the top end went together last night, and I did the pickup, exhaust, and sump (with my temp gasket) this morning. Fired up fine, idles fine.
1st Flush: 4qt 5w30, 1qt diesel, 5 minutes idle. It drained cleaner than I would have though. Never any oil light. Check dip stick - return seems fine.
2nd Flush: 5qt oil, 15 minutes idle. New filter. Cleaner still....no oil light
3rd Flush: 5qt oil, 20 minutes idle. Stop to check return - seems to be returning to sump fine. Drove 15 miles. I will take it to work (20 mi round trip) on this flush, drop the pan tomorrow to clean the pickup, if necessary, & RTV the pan in place. I'll take pics as a ARX baseline, then start the treatment.
Thanks for all the help - more to come.

Sidebar, the inside of the throttle body is coated with a film of oil - all breathing/sludge related, right? Is there a preferred way of cleaning this out?

Yes it is starting to clean your ring packs and other contaminants. After rinse phase this will stop . Your also going to burn some oil during the cleaning phase, just top off with oil (no more Auto-Rx) and finish appiication.

-- Edited by Frank Miller at 11:20, 2009-02-16

kbrubach,
If the smoke at startup is heavy, continues, and you get puffs (with accompanying tapping from the engine) when accelerating, you may have a severe sludge problem like mine, and cannot wait 3000 miles. Watch your oil consumption VERY carefully. For me, I was consuming 1 qt every 200 mi. At that point, I had to stop driving to get to the root cause - and, well, the pictures are how things looked.
If the smoke is a figment of the cleaning, then great. I just caution you that the heavy smoke I got started almost overnight and didn't go away until I manually cleaned things.
I'm 500 miles into driving w/o auto-rx, no noticeable oil consumption, no smoke (zip!). When I get time (maybe this weekend), Ill drop the pan again, take pics, and start arx. So far, so good - I'd have never thought it possible considering how things looked.

Greetings! I'm about 1100 miles into the Cleaning Phase now. I've been trying to get the car out on the highway as often as possible. 100-150 mile runs on the weekends, and 25-30 miles on days when I work. Oil consumption has been fairly minimal. The time the oil takes to drain back into the sump (which I had expressed concern about before) is still fairly long, though doesn't seem as bad as on my last road trip in November. One thing I noticed the last couple times I had it out, is once the engine has been running for a while (30-45 minutes) at highway speeds, I'm getting some light knocking when I accelerate quickly (like go from 60 to 65 mph to pass someone) or am on a long grade on the highway. It seems worse when it's cold out (in the 20's again today). Is that possibly because the oil is staying up in the upper part of the engine longer than it shold? Should I be concerned about that? Oh, and I'm using 93 octane BP gas, so I don't think it's a gas issue. Thanks guys!

Try running some Marvel Mystery Oil through your gas tank.

The MAF is the Mass Air Flow Sensor. It is located on the top half of your air filter box, just by the hose. To clean it, you will need to remove the assembly and spray it with electrical contact cleaner, allowing it to dry before reassembly. ECC dries very fast anyway.

If memory serves me right, the EGR valve is located near the firewall. It is not visible from the top of the engine. You will need to locate the vacuum hose by hand and follow it down to the EGR valve. Hope this helps.

BTW, the 1MZ-FE engine runs just fine on 91 AKI octane. Before doing anything else, run a dosage of 4 oz. per 10 gallons of MMO and see if it makes a difference.

Okay, thanks! The MAF sounds straight forward enough. I will go out and see if I can find it!

Help! The knocking, which started on my last weekend outing, got really bad this week. I tried putting in a fuel additive/cleaner, but it didn't seem to make any difference this time. So, I took it in to a shop in my area. Everything in the emissions control system checked out okay. They pulled the plugs and did a compression test on the front 3 cylinders, and said that the Number 1 cylinder was in pretty bad shape. They also dropped the oil pan. There was sludge in there, and the pickup screen was almost completely blocked. The choices at this point seem to be: clean it up as best they can and continue running it, replace the short block and salvage what other parts they can, and get a complete long block. I'm stopping by the shop in person tomorrow, to get more details as they called on my cell phone and the reception wasn't too great where I was. What other questions should I ask? Is my engine maybe too far gone for the Auto-RX to work on it? I was planning on taking it on a bunch of 100-200 mile trips for the Cleaning Phase, but I really can't do that now with it knocking so badly. Oh and the shop called Toyota again on my behalf, and they got the same answer I did - there are no known problems with these engines. 

-- Edited by kbrubach on Thursday 19th of March 2009 06:26:45 PM