Auto-Rx Customers Questions & Answers

EMRS06 · Newbie

Can't find non synthetic 5w-40 for Audi A4 1.8t

dbdeland · Senior Member

EMRS06,

I do not see any issues using 10x40 oil using ARX in the 1.8 engine.

geeaea · Senior Member

There's nothing wrong with using Rotella 5w-40 for either the cleaning or the rinse phase. It's just expensive compared to a conventional. RTS is a Group III synthetic, but @ $19/gallon for 2500 and 3000 miles of use gets expensive. For that short a duration, I think the conventional 15w-40 Rotella will serve your Audi just fine. It's got the high HTHS spec's that the Euro's insist on, it just can't jump through the endurance and fuel economy standards of all the ACEA alphabet soup along with the string of numbers/letters with the VW 500 series of seemingly endless revisions.

They really should come out with a Euro-Spec Service Pack 4 ..just like Windows XP did.

market525 · Member

If it were me, I'd be careful about what you run in you Audi. Do you have owner's manuals with the car? Check in there ... usually VW/Audi specifies a certain weight oil (yes, 5w40 in this case) but that meets a certain SPEC. I seem to recall it being VW Spec 502.00 or 505.00 ... which is why I tell you to consult your owner's manual for the exact spec.

I am almost positive that you won't find a NON SYNTHETIC that meets the VW 502.00 or 505.00 spec.

And since you're on the ARX site, you must know about the severe sludging problems that 1.8T has encountered.

It's your money and car, but if it were me, there is NO WAY I'd use anything but a full synthetic in that car that meets the above mentioned spec, given that engine's well known history of sludge issues.

ARX can be used with the group III oils ... seems to me Castrol Syntec 5w40 meets the VW spec, as does the Valvoline 5w40 ... both of which are readily available in premium auto parts stores.

Good luck.
Steve

EMRS06 · Newbie

Thanks alot. So Castrol Syntec 5w-40 is a group III? If that's the case then I will go with that. Thanks again.

TurboJim · Moderator

Here is a link to Audi's approved motor oils - http://www.audiusa.com/etc/medialib/cms4imp/audi2/aoa/company/aoa-specific.Par.0023.File.pdf

-- Edited by TurboJim on Sunday 29th of November 2009 12:23:47 AM

market525 · Member

Just be aware that many of those oils on the "audi link" in the prior email you will not find in this Country.

Frank Miller · Guru

Oil is oil it seems some think Audi etc etc get golden saudi light from an Audi User in the Saudi Royal Family.

It is the additive package you pay for (average cost $2.00) and why must you use synthetic in these engines because there precision built and far superior than a Plymouth Slant 6 ? No rather it is because the engine compartment does not let enough air in to cool. When you use Auto-Rx you can add any Group 111 Oil and run cooler than you do now.

geeaea · Senior Member

I agree, Frank. Delvac 1 is about the most durable and advanced 5w-40 on the planet. Robust and I dare a Euro-alloy to destroy it. It is on NO list of manufacturer approval lists due to not meeting ALL the spec's. It can't deliver the fuel economy standard.

They configure those spec's like a labyrinth of conflicting attributes. It must endure the long OCI WHILE delivering xx% increase in fuel economy WHILE maintaining a certain level of deposit control WHILE using lower levels of phosphorous WHILE resulting in only so much WEAR.

Throw out just one of the requirements and you don't get to play.

The Euro-alloy building philosophy is different than here. They build you a package that can run all day at near full output and do it for the entire prescribed recommended oil change interval. This naturally complicates things ..which they appear to excel at. Only Audi would spec a central hydraulic fluid that is only matched in the aviation sector. With them the ultimate performance of the vehicle is paramount in design. The rest of the world wraps around it in facilitating it.

I doubt there's the engine alive in any production form that could suffer with Rotella 5w-40 for 3000 miles. Make that 10k+. Plenty of VW/Audi owners use it instead of tap dancing to the alphabet soup. They're not demanding the same things that VW/Audi does out of the oil.

TurboJim · Moderator

In Europe you hardly ever hear of a sludge problem in these engines, only in North America. Could it be our driving conditions, our oil, our gasoline, our emission controls?

Regardless of "why" these engines are prone to sludging up it is in the best interest of their owners to be pro-active about their well being. This includes keeping the oil change intervals down to 5,000 miles or less, and servicing the PCV system on a regular basis.

bmwtechguy · Senior Member

Go with the Castrol 5W-40 on the clean and Rotella 5W-40 on the rinse, or use either one of these oils for both clean and rinse if you want to stay with a group III-based synthetic.

If you are only going to run it 2500-4500 for each cycle, I see no reason why you could not safely use any good, non-synthetic 15W-40 diesel-rated oil, especially in the summer. Mobil Clean 5000 10W-40 is another good non-synthetic oil that can work for clean or rinse, and probably would be able to meet the A3 euro spec if tested for it. I have used this oil in 1990 and newer BMWs and MB for Auto-Rx clean and rinse cycles with good results. It has the CF light duty diesel spec on the bottle, unlike other non-syn 10W-40 brands, which makes it special to me, plus the price is very good on sale when I stock up.

-- Edited by bmwtechguy on Sunday 13th of December 2009 09:54:42 AM

Frank Miller · Guru

AutoRx chemist explains how it works
My name is Rich Eklund, I work as chemical formulation consultant to the Auto-Rx Group. Your question is loud and clear. The web site people will be correcting the confusion. I am pleased to see that ARX has some astute readers.

To answer your question, "Will ARX work with Synthetics?", the answer is yes. May I qualify that this is true whereby your goal is to clean out deposits and contaminants in a relatively well maintained machine. In other words a preventative maintenance application. Auto-Rx and its combination of cleaning esters will certainly enhance a full synthetic's ability to clean while performing its primary objective of lubricating. Most oils have only the amount of detergency to maintain a clean system, not clean a dirty one. So what happens is that if you put clean oil in a dirty motor, the detergent package gets consumed long before the scheduled oil drain and what initial cleaning occurred with fresh change, you give back at the end, and may be more over time. ARX will give the host oil many times over , the cleaning capacity of the host oil. The oil is still capable of lubricating, while the ARX slowly clean the deposits.

However, if you attempting to address a rotational seal issue, such as front or rear main seal or cam seal, then I would suggest using a dino oil and follow the instruction on the ART site.

If you have a very high mileage dirty motor, that will need two or more applications, I would suggest dino again for the sheer cost of running back to back cleanings.

ARX cleans a bit faster when run with dino oil. Reason being, ARX composed entirely of esters are polar and have somewhat of an attraction to metal. With dino's there are no other large quantities of polar materials and ARX has little competetion for the metal surfaces. In full synthetics, typically you a PAO lubricating base, combined with esters to hold the oils additive package in suspension. These coupling esters will compete with ARX for space on the metal surfaces. May I also note that many group III dino derived/refined base oils are marketed as full synthetic. ARX will work great with these as well.

So in conclusion, yes you may run ARX with a full synthetic and enjoy good results. However if you have rotational seal issues, dino would be your choice.

Hope this is helpful to you. Any further questions, write us back.

Best Regards,

Rich Eklund
Keeping a low profile while having fun driving my 6.

cycloxer · Member

I plan to use Castrol GTX 5W-30 regular dino for the 3k clean and rinse phases w/ the oversize filter in my 1.8T GTI. My reasoning is that I want the full cleaning properties of the ARX.

Richone · Senior Member

This should be fine and yield best results. Remember you are only running 3000 mile oil change intervals. After you are done with your clean and rinse phase, remember to run the maintenance dose with each oil change to further clean or keep things clean.

cycloxer · Member

Yeah it sounds like you want a dino that does not interfere with the ARX esters in order to get the best cleaning results. I am not too worried w/ a 3k change interval and the huge diesel oil filter. I'll run the 3k rinse phase w/ GTX too. Then I will finally switch back to Syntec. I'd run 10W-40, but I think the 5W will be better considering it is still winter.

cycloxer · Member

I've been running 12 oz. of ARX w/ 4 quarts of 5W-30 Castrol GTX in my 1.8T GTI for 750 miles. So far so good. The oil seems to be staying quite clean. The engine is running great and the valves seem to be quieting down a bit. Perhaps my engine was not as dirty as I originally thought. This led me to a question:

Can I run the ARX for longer than 3k miles? Could I go 4k or even 5k? Also, I am running the larger diesel oil filter on this 1.8T (as recommended by the VW service bulletin). It is a huge filter for the oil capacity of this engine.

geeaea · Senior Member

Can you? Sure. It's not recommended. The mileage limitations/recommendations have evolved over time here at Auto-Rx. Keep in mind that the condition of your engine is an unknown here. There's also consumer acceptance. The original mileage, while effective at ring decoking and clearing of areas of forced circulation, the newer evolutions of sludge proved to be more challenging. Sludge in the past was a pudding like formation. Now we're seeing more tars encrusted on surfaces.

There's also the issue of people feeling that they used too much oil, or didn't want to keep track of mileage in such a compressed manner. After substantial trails/testing, it was determined that 2500-3000 miles would serve as a convenient number for consumers to work with. Many would already be using it. Hence they could just add the product and go about their business. Totally transparent in their oil change routine. The most they would have to remember is to use it every other time if they were doing a second treatment. It also allowed the product longer dwell time in the sump for the more cosmetic effects and attack the harder tar formations.

There are users that do 5k and more, but they've been using Auto-Rx for years. They're experienced with it. They're more in tune with their engine's condition than most consumers and Frank has no way to gauge any consumer's engine's level of insult nor the consumer's familiarity with their vehicle.

My only caution to you, not that I truly see a problem, is to immediately stop at the onset of any anomaly. Change the filter immediately as the first course of action in seeking remedy.

The Euro's tend to use a relatively loose filter with a very high bypass valve setting. This is due to the typical oils weights that they spec and the pump volumes (ample, but not overboard). For some, the oil pressure can be slammed up against the relief valve and this will elevate the PSID across the filter. Since full warm up can take a while on some engines, it would mean that a common filter would be in bypass for the lion's share of the typical driving event. An engine could literally spend most of its life on unfiltered oil. They compensate with 30lb bypass valve settings to allow that much differential across the media before the bypass valve opens.

cycloxer · Member

Okay I will check the oil at 3k and make a determination at that time. If the weather is getting warm I'll probably change it anyway so that I can get some 5W-40 Syntec in there in place of the GTX.

geeaea · Senior Member

Change the filter if you want to go further without changing the oil. Cut it open if you can. That should provide adequate safety margins for you. Again, how many other nuances can be added to the instructions?? LOL! Just know what you're doing and know what to look for. Are you getting the feel of what I'm saying?

Auto-Rx doesn't get "spent". It's not like an additive that is sacrificial. The stuff will be happy to spin around in the sump as long as you please. Eventually you'll tax the dispersant and detergent package of the oil that's keeping stuff in suspension that the filter cannot filter out. This would occur with or without Auto-Rx and with or without a deposit problem before hand ..it's just that Auto-Rx won't care how long it's in there. I'm unsure about the ester that's used as a friction modifier. I think it would just reform itself on the mixed boundary/dynamic regions when/if it's disturbed. ..but the polyolester carrier shouldn't wear out and the nature lube fatty acid ester shouldn't either ...or so I reason.

johnoh · Veteran Member

geeaea wrote:

Eventually you'll tax the dispersant and detergent package of the oil that's keeping stuff in suspension that the filter cannot filter out. This would occur with or without Auto-Rx and with or without a deposit problem before hand

Then at that point (when the taxing is full) do the no-longer-suspended contaminants start to reform on the engine? It sounds like thats what you are saying. However wouldn't the presence of autorx serve to minimize this reformation by its action on the contaminants?

-- Edited by johnoh on Wednesday 3rd of March 2010 04:20:49 PM

geeaea · Senior Member

The basic point of my comment is that Auto-Rx will last as long as the oil does. That will vary depending on the saturation level of contaminants. If you feel your oil has longer life to it (and in the case of may oils, it may surely have ), and desire to exceed the recommended mileage numbers, then the sensible thing to do is change the filter so that as (potentially) material agglomerates, that there is adequate filter holding capacity to trap it.

Once the engine is clean, then use the maintenance dose for whatever drain you normally would. In many cases that may be an extended drain by most standards.